WPCoffeeTalk: Chris Vanover

[00:00:00] Speaker A: Welcome to WP Coffee talk with your podcast Barista Michelle Frechette, where we interview people in the WordPress community from all over the world. Every guest is asked the same questions and every guest has wonderful and varied answers about their history and their hopes. Special thanks to our espresso level sponsors, Bluehost, WS form and Beaver Builder. And now on with the show. Welcome to WP Coffee Talk. I'm your podcast Barista Michelle Frechette, serving up the WordPress stories from around the world. And today my guest is Chris Vanover who is the senior director of product management at Nufold Digital. Chris, welcome to the store. Welcome to the show. I almost said to the store, I don't know why, thank you. It's the end of the day. Whatever. Yeah. It's so good to have you here and it was nice to meet you in Asia. So we actually met face to face not too long ago at Word Camp Asia. [00:00:59] Speaker B: It was nice to meet you there. Yes. Great trip. [00:01:02] Speaker A: Yeah, it was a lot of fun, a lot of flying. It was a lot of airplane time. [00:01:08] Speaker B: A lot. And a lot of jet lag on both ends. [00:01:11] Speaker A: Oh, absolutely. Where are you located normally when you're not in Asia? [00:01:15] Speaker B: Arkansas. Yep. Southern us. Yep. [00:01:17] Speaker A: Very good. And I'm in Rochester, New York, so, yeah, so a little bit out of our time zone when we were over in Taipei, but it's good to be home. So for those people who don't know, you tell us a little bit about yourself and what you do. [00:01:33] Speaker B: Yep. So I'm the senior director for hosting product management at Bluehost, which basically means we help develop products and deliver products to the market. And as they go as a product manager, we just make sure that that product meets what the customer is needing. Right. Filling the business, the customer need. And we don't, you know, you know, miss the Target. We get what the business needs and what the customer needs and we meet the goals of the delivery. So you really kind of glue, you know, between the engineering, the business, the customer, just making sure we're all in sync and delivering the correct product. [00:02:13] Speaker A: Does that mean you're, that you're not usually the face of the company, the one doing the podcast and things like that? [00:02:19] Speaker B: No, no, no. I normally stay behind the curtain and just, you know, communicate between everybody. Being out in front, a little outside my comfort zone. [00:02:28] Speaker A: But we're doing, you're doing so, you're doing good so far. So just hang in with me. We're going to get through it. I ask everybody to bring a mug and something to drink and to tell us the story. So show us your mug. [00:02:40] Speaker B: Yep, yep. Very simple. So, you know, my coffee, Wp coffee talk. I really only started drinking coffee about three years ago and it really was just a diet thing. Um, I'd always, I've been a coke guy my whole life and, you know, just chug cokes all day. And uh, someone told me like, really ought to try coffee. I'm like, oh, I hate the taste of coffee. And I gave it a few weeks and so it was really right before the pandemic, I switched, started drinking coffee, you know, half milk, half coffee for the first few weeks and then, and now it's black coffee. And so I start fill this up every morning with coffee. It lasts me, you know, most of the morning. And then throughout the day I'll switch to other drinks that a little less caffeinated. I can't drink coffee. It's water today. This afternoon, it's afternoon. Caffeine will keep me up all night. So I cut it off in the morning. So cup of water right now. [00:03:33] Speaker A: So I was in my late forties before I started drinking coffee too. So we are, we are the exception, not the rule, by the way, because most people start a lot earlier. But I'll show you my mug today. So my mug is stand for what you stand on. And that was a campaign when I was with Givewp. I mean, I'm still with Givewp, but I don't work specifically for that brand anymore. And I also have water in my glass because it is after 05:00 and I too would like to sleep at some point this evening. So it's all water from this point out. So tell us, how did you get started with WordPress, really? [00:04:07] Speaker B: When I came to Bluehost five years ago, my background is technology development and also I had a lot of cloud experience. And so I came over to the hosting side of WordPress, hosting side of Bluehost. And that's really where I got started with WordPress. Up to that point it was just generic clad cloud application development. And so here in Bluehost, it was website hosting specifically, and then moved into WordPress more specifically. [00:04:34] Speaker A: Oh, very cool. And how do you find the community? [00:04:38] Speaker B: Outstanding. You know, we just, we just mentioned WordPress Asia. I was blown away. You know, it's very different. You know, I've been in technology for a long time, been to a lot of different conferences. You know, the old Comdex conferences would be in Vegas with 100,000 people and, you know, all these different vendor conferences and it was very different. It wasn't a vendor conference, it was a user conference, you know, the community with, with WordPress, you know, I was aware of the community, but just going there and getting that first time experience, it was unlike anything else. And it was, and it wasn't just a bunch of, you know, geeky developers, right? It was the community, it was the creatives, you know, the collaboration, it was very, very different. I really enjoyed it. Look forward to the next one as well. [00:05:29] Speaker A: Absolutely. One of the nice things too is, you know, we work in remote circles now, right? So most of us are working remotely. And one of the really nice things about word camps is you get to actually see the co workers, your own coworkers that you may never have actually been in the same room with before, which is super cool too. [00:05:45] Speaker B: Yeah. [00:05:46] Speaker A: And you've got, you got a good team, you've got a lot of really good people. [00:05:50] Speaker B: We did. And we're spread out all over the world. We're a very virtual company. And so, yeah, I met people, you know, from, from Europe and Asia that, you know, I speak to occasionally but never met face to face. It was great to be able to hang out with them. [00:06:04] Speaker A: That's one of my favorite things for sure. So being in the business that we're in, we see a lot of websites. So my next question is, what is something that you think that we as web builders, developers, designers, whatever label we put on ourselves, what do you think we don't focus enough attention on that would actually, if we did make our sites better for the end user? [00:06:27] Speaker B: Well, I think a lot of times it depends on our perspective and I've noticed this, that even with myself as a developer, a lot of times I spend too much on the functionality and I build a really ugly site. Right. Whereas because I'm not, I don't consider myself very creative, but the opposite. We sell a lot of people that are very creative. Beautiful site, but boy, is it slow, right? [00:06:53] Speaker A: Yeah. [00:06:53] Speaker B: And so I think a lot of times it just depends. We don't cross over to the other side of our brain enough to get the full function, you know. So I would say it's just whoever you are getting a well rounded site. [00:07:10] Speaker A: That'S where collaboration comes in really useful. Right? [00:07:12] Speaker B: Absolutely. Right. [00:07:14] Speaker A: You can have creatives working with developers who are technically, you know, geniuses and you get it all together and it's like the perfect, the perfect website kind of comes to light. [00:07:23] Speaker B: Yeah. Right. You know, stay with your gift and then pull in others for their gift. [00:07:27] Speaker A: Yeah, yeah. Absolutely. For sure. It's like I'm not the best graphic artists, but man, do I look good now that canva exists. Right? Like thinking back, I know you said you've been, you know, in the WordPress community like about five years or so. What is something that during that time you've learned that you wish you'd known sooner? Like that would have made life a whole lot easier if only you had known this one thing existed? [00:07:57] Speaker B: Oh, that's a difficult one. A lot of it is just ease of use. I wish I had spent more time early on just diving into WordPress. Right. I came from the hosting side and so I was doing a little bit everything, you know, if I had the crystal ball, I would have just dove right in on day one and said, I'm going to become a WordPress expert rather than, you know, being the, you know, the jack of all trades, just trying to concentrate on it. Of course it's a lot, there's a lot more resources today to learn WordPress than it was five years ago. [00:08:33] Speaker A: Absolutely. And when I started twelve years ago, there were even fewer and I was just like, somebody teach me this thing. [00:08:39] Speaker B: Yeah, of course. It's also a lot easier today as well. [00:08:42] Speaker A: Yes. [00:08:43] Speaker B: You know, with, with Gutenberg and blocks and, you know, that's a lot of things we, we've struggled with as a hosting provider is we get a lot of new customers that come in and says, hey, I hear that WordPress is what I need. So give me WordPress. And then they say, what's that WP admin thing? You know, and they struggle. And so, you know, we've done a lot of work there with, you know, with wonder suite and those kind of things is really helping those new users, you know, get up and running. [00:09:09] Speaker A: Yeah, absolutely. [00:09:10] Speaker B: Because a lot of times I'll go to a proprietary builder and they'll come back a month later and says, okay, I build my site, but I can't do anything I want because I'm so limited. So, yeah, we've really, really pushed in WordPress for the whole gamut. [00:09:25] Speaker A: Yeah. CMs that, that you can learn how to use and that there's resources in the community, YouTube, you know, LinkedIn, learning all of those things. It really does make it easier for people to build and maintain their own websites, for sure. [00:09:36] Speaker B: Yeah. And you'll never outgrow it, right. It'll do whatever you can. [00:09:41] Speaker A: Yeah, exactly. There are some people though, who are still like clinging to the classic editor and you will have to wring it from their cold, dead hands. But I'm a block girl now, so I'm all about leading into blocks, which is a good thing for sure. When you think about some of the events that you might have attended, whether it's Orcip Asia or other places, what's an event or a moment that has happened at one of those events that you can tell us about that made a difference for you, whether it was inspirational, pivotal, interesting, like what's something that you could share with us from an event? [00:10:15] Speaker B: Yeah. So I just go back to the community day at WordPress, you know, being my first one, you know, I didn't contribute. I was so overwhelmed. I really wanted to take it in and just go table to table, you know, and talk about, well, you know, the photo guys, what are y'all doing, right? You know, and the documentation. How are y'all? So, um, it wasn't one specific thing. It was a whole day, just, you know, get it all in. And so now I can look forward to the next one and where I want to, you know, sign up and contribute that day. [00:10:50] Speaker A: It is a pretty cool thing, those contributor days, I'll tell you, I was, I went to camps for years before I had enough confidence to actually attend contributor day because earlier on I thought, like, contributing just meant code and I wasn't a coder, but there's so much you can do and I often table lead for the photos. Table has nothing to do with code. It's teaching people how to do good things with photos. So it's a lot of fun, for sure. [00:11:16] Speaker B: Yeah. I felt guilty not contributing that day, but I was like so overwhelmed. It's like I've got to figure it all out so I can be ready the next time. [00:11:24] Speaker A: There were over 700 people in the room too. It was loud and it was busy and it was pretty awesome though. Yep, it really was. So Bluehost. I have a lot of friends that work at Bluehost. I work for a different hosting company myself, but I love us all. I try to stay agnostic on my own podcast. But first of all, you just have some phenomenal people that work with you over there. But you also just released something brand new. So tell us about Bluehost Cloud. [00:11:55] Speaker B: So it's a brand new product. We've worked with Automatic, you know, the creators, inventors of WordPress and taken their WP cloud product and merged it with the Bluehost brand. So really allows us to go upscale. We have, we have a lot of options today from shared hosting for WordPress vps. Daddy. But, but the, this new Bluehost cloud product allows us to move upscale into the pro freelancers and agencies. So it's a product that is proven. So it runs today, it runs WordPress.com and a lot of really high volume websites. So it's very, very fast and it has the availability and scalability reliability that agencies need. So you pick your data center, you have automatic failover and you get to choose the resources. So you buy a pack of resources and if you have ten sites, you just divide your resources out among those 10, 25, 50 sites. And if you have a surge in a social media campaign or a marketing that's really taken off, adjust your resources up for that site. And when it, when it's over, bring your resources back down. You have, you know, a, a professional site that is scalable but also very affordable. You don't have any add ons so everything's included. Backup, certs, malware, scanning. Everything you need is included and unlimited. There's no cap on band with their visitors, so unlike some of the competitors, you're not going to get a surprise bill at the end of the month. And then we paired it with our support plans or our support team and we've pulled together a lot of our WordPress experts in the company, put them on one team dedicated to this one product. So when a Bluehost cloud customer has a question or a problem, they call in. They don't deal with a frontline support agent. They go directly to a WordPress professional that understands WordPress thoroughly and can help them out with their issues. [00:14:02] Speaker A: So that's good. That makes a difference. [00:14:05] Speaker B: Yeah, we're very, very proud of it. I mean, and you know, we've got great reviews. The performance is outstanding. [00:14:13] Speaker A: Nice, nice. I haven't experimented with it yet. Maybe I'll, maybe I'll talk to you later about that and take a little tour. [00:14:20] Speaker B: We'll get you set up on, let you, let you try it out. [00:14:23] Speaker A: That'd be fun. So I have a question that we didn't talk about in advance, but I was a die hard cpanelist. Like, I loved cpanel and I know a lot of people hate cpanel. Right? Like paper lantern. That was my thing. I learned it. That's probably why, like, I knew how to do everything in there. Have you also, like a lot of other hosts, kind of either hidden away or gotten rid of the cpanel and made a much easier interface for your. [00:14:50] Speaker B: Yes. For bluehost cloud? Yes. We have a simplified interface that's also optimized for multi site management multiple websites. Right. So you're an agency. You've got a lot of domains, you've got a. A lot of sites, staging sites, production sites, everything. So we make it very easy to manage and scale there. [00:15:12] Speaker A: Nice. And backups and all of that, I'm sure are there too. [00:15:15] Speaker B: Yep. Everything is there. Performance metrics, access logs. [00:15:20] Speaker A: I love it all there. Let me ask you another question. So a few years ago, I was working on a site. I'm not going to say who the site was, I'm not going to say where it was hosted, but I was working on a site that was suddenly like DNS. Like we got this huge denial service. The site went down and I started getting ransom notes through text messages or through DM's and more than one account. They tracked me into different accounts. I kept blocking them, telling me I needed to send $5,000 in bitcoin for them to back off kind of thing. Instead, I just talked to the host who upped the resources, turn the site back on. And then when they finally went away because they realized they were going to do anything, we just reset the resources again. Is that something that people can do through bluehost cloud as well? So they're running into issues? [00:16:03] Speaker B: Yeah, yeah. We've got a global CDN that will generally protect you from most every denial of service attack. We've also got the web location firewall, which is that, which is the next layer. And then because of the global CDN, once you hit that, you're on our network. So if they're attacking a particular IP address, we just move it to another ip and just let them eat some, you know? [00:16:28] Speaker A: Yeah, well, and it's like when you're in like an insider, it's like we know, like, we know who to call, we know how to do. But for people who are like the mom and pops, like building their own websites, and suddenly they don't know what to do, knowing that they can call in, talk to their host and have those problems solved, I think is really important. So it's good to hear. [00:16:48] Speaker B: Yeah, yeah. You know, with our experience, you know, managing over 2 million websites, you know, it's. Unfortunately, it's something we deal with on a daily basis, every single day. And generally we do a great job and the customer never even knows it. Right. We see the attack, we implement mitigation and just move on and it keeps us busy, but we protect the customers. [00:17:14] Speaker A: I mean, that's why people have jobs. Right? Job security. That's awesome. Well, I'm happy to hear about it. I had Jocelyn Hendrickson on the show last year talking about your stores and things like that, all the Bluehost products. And it's like you guys just keep innovating and coming up with some more things and making strategic partnerships and, you know, congratulations. There's a lot of really good stuff happening over there. [00:17:36] Speaker B: Thank you. They've got a lot of great stuff. We've, you know, the. Just to call out Jocelyn's team, you know, they've got the wonder suite. You know, they're adding. They're adding AI there into that. You know, everyone's bringing out AI, but we've got AI for the. From the builder and several other things within wonder suite. And that'll also work with Bluehost cloud. Right. So agency comes in, sets up these slides. They can use the wondersuite to help automate a lot of the building and not do it on manual and allow them to do more what their gift is. Right. [00:18:08] Speaker A: Yeah. [00:18:09] Speaker B: And not. Do not do the menial tasks. Let AI do a lot of that stuff for them. [00:18:14] Speaker A: Yeah. And I'm also constantly impressed with how you have people in, in your company also serving as resources within the community. So thank you for being community minded within Bluehost as well. And newfold. [00:18:28] Speaker B: Yeah, we like to give back because, you know, we're all, we're all WordPress users and we've got to keep moving it forward. [00:18:33] Speaker A: Exactly. And, and I love that we can all sit down to a meal together and it's not about who's got more, like, you know, more clients and who's competing for. It's just like we're all just contributing to the community. Yeah. And there's. There's enough pie to go around. [00:18:47] Speaker B: We're all there. And all the vendors go around and get, get each other's swag. [00:18:51] Speaker A: I may have a few bluehost things in my desk, I admit. And you might have a stellar pin. I don't know. It's good. [00:19:01] Speaker B: I cannot confirm or deny. [00:19:02] Speaker A: Exactly. Right. I have a, I have a bulletin board over here that has over probably 500 WordPress pins on it now. And I have bluehost pins and yoast pins. And, you know, who else have I got over any hosting company. I've got every mall up there, and just my collection grows at every word camp, which is a lot of fun. So. Absolutely. I take pictures every once in a while, and people look on face or on Twitter and they're like, I don't see mine. What's your address? I'll send you a pin, which is fun. Let's move into the rapid fire questions. As I always say, they're not really rapid. They just may be shorter answers than other things, but take the time that you need to answer them. And so here we go. What are two or three must have plugins that you would recommend to somebody building their own website? [00:19:54] Speaker B: Yeah. So my background is primarily as a systems developer, engineer, operations, and so I'll say forms, a form plugin of some type. You know, we spoke about it actually at Wordcamp Asia a little bit, but some type of a form plugin is required. But then I got to jump back to, you know, my background. A performance plugin, performance monitoring. Right. Understand, how is your system performing? You know, what's. What's working, what's not working. And then a backup. Absolute backup. [00:20:30] Speaker A: Yeah. [00:20:30] Speaker B: And every time I don't have a backup, it bites me and I regret. [00:20:34] Speaker A: It and, you know, it's. And we can, more and more, we can rely on our host for backups. But any good designer, developer, builder also has a backup somewhere off of their hosting site, just in case. Catastrophic, whatever happens. Right. So it's just a little security blanket. And I learned that the hard way once upon a time. And that's the story for another day. We want to talk about that today. [00:21:00] Speaker B: And that's why when we built out the Bluehost cloud, it's automatic. You create a site, backups are on. [00:21:10] Speaker A: Absolutely. [00:21:11] Speaker B: You know, just like you pull up. If I pull up word document, autosave should be on. [00:21:16] Speaker A: Exactly. [00:21:18] Speaker B: Learn after hours and hours of work. Oops. [00:21:20] Speaker A: Exactly how many pages have you typed already? Exactly. No, that's not good. And I like that WordPress has versioning too, right? So like, you don't lose that unless you purposely delete it, which is a good thing too. So at any point in your WordPress or business journey, have you had a mentor, whether it was an official mentor or maybe somebody kind of you looked up to and tried to emulate? And can you tell us who that was? [00:21:43] Speaker B: Yeah, I'll probably surprise him here, but a co worker, Chris Miles, he's a internal bluehost, WordPress. I'll be nice and call him Smee, but anytime I have a question about WordPress, I can. I can go to Chris and he'll graciously give me every little detail about it. [00:22:07] Speaker A: Solid, salt of the earth person too. Really, really good person. Yeah. I will approve that message. You can't mention Chris for the next one, though. You can't have the same answer twice. So who is somebody that you admire in the WordPress community and why? [00:22:24] Speaker B: Well, you might consider this a cop out, but I'm going to mention it because it is such a major person. That's Matt, Matt Mullenweg. Right. Not just because, you know, he was one of the co founder for WordPress, but he has such a difficult job. Right. And I know he takes fire every day from the.org versus.com and all the decisions that have to, have to be made. And I can't imagine how difficult his job is to, you know, to ride that line. And so I admire him for being able to, you know, continue to support, you know, really one of the largest open source projects out there and keep it moving in the, in addition to the, you know, the commercial side that he has. So I admire him for that. [00:23:20] Speaker A: Yeah. When you say that, the phrase comes to mind often specifically about Matt Mullenweg is that heavy as the head that wears the crown because like, it really is all on him a lot of the time. For sure. And if somebody's going to suffer the slings and arrows, it is definitely usually on his, his back. So, yeah, he's a good guy. He really is. [00:23:41] Speaker B: Yeah. And I was watching one of your other podcasts you'd mentioned. You know, he's, you know, he's very personable and that, and he is, and that's more difficult there because people always want to give him their opinion. Right. You should do it this way. You should do that way, you know, and go work camp Asia. He, you know, did the Q and A and he had difficult questions. Right. And he was, you know, very nice about answering them and moving on and. [00:24:04] Speaker A: Yeah, but, yeah, things on his feet, difficult position. For sure. For sure. So what's something that you'd like to learn in WordPress that you haven't tackled yet? [00:24:14] Speaker B: I want to get deep down into the guts. I want to really, you know, be a, a developer in WordPress. I wouldn't mind, you know, getting into core WordPress and really understanding more about that. I've really tackled it from the hosting side, you know, and the website development side. I'd like to get into the core piece. I'm not sure if it will, but it's something I'd like to do. [00:24:39] Speaker A: I mean, they're always looking for people. It's a possibility. We can connect you if you ever want to explore a little deeper. For sure. [00:24:46] Speaker B: All right. [00:24:47] Speaker A: What's one of the biggest mistakes that you've ever made in WordPress and what did you learn from it? [00:24:53] Speaker B: Not doing a backup deleting the site. [00:24:56] Speaker A: That's mine too. [00:24:59] Speaker B: I knew I had a backup, but it was just a test site and it wasn't a huge deal. But, you know, it was several hours of work that I got to do a second time. But I'm sure it was more efficient the second time. [00:25:11] Speaker A: You know that you do learn something, right? For sure. Mine was not that I lost the site as much as it got hacked and I didn't have a backup, so I had to clean it as opposed to just redeploying it. So that wasn't fun. It was several years ago before there were automatic backups and things like that. And yeah, no, my mistake. But I learned a lot that weekend, let me tell you. It was also shared hosting and it was twelve sites that got infected. So. Yeah, so anyway, that's, again, another story for another day. What is your proudest WordPress moment? [00:25:45] Speaker B: It's got to be this product, bluest cloud, just because we've actually a very, very tight timeline. And so the teams did an amazing job in developing and rolling this out. We spent a few months last year meeting with agencies, potential customers and really understanding what they wanted from a product, what the competitors offered them, what the competitors didn't offer them, what they liked, didn't like. And so that whole process was great. And then the product that we delivered at the end by the whole, all the teams was a very proud moment. [00:26:23] Speaker A: I can imagine. And when it like hit the masses, and I think I got the story before a lot of other people because of the work I do. So it was embargoed at first and I was like, ooh, people are going to love or hate this because they're going to be jealous or they're going to love it, right kind of thing. So, yeah, no, I think it's good reason to be proud for sure. Lost track of my questions because I was thinking about that if you weren't working in web or web tech at all, what's another career that you might like to try? [00:26:55] Speaker B: That's another strange answer. A professional basketball player. [00:26:59] Speaker A: Oh, okay. [00:27:01] Speaker B: So now it would never happen because I have no athletic ability. So, you know. You didn't say you had to be realistic. [00:27:08] Speaker A: No, not at all. [00:27:10] Speaker B: My wife played basketball in college and two of my sons played college basketball. And it's made me kind of jealous of like, I would have kind of liked to have been able to play basketball, but it would never happen. I don't have that ability. But, you know, if I, if I could just do it all over and you know, had no limitations and had, you know, actual athletic ability. Yeah, that's what I'd like to do. [00:27:32] Speaker A: That sounds like fun. You could have been like, another Michael Jordan. Who knows? What's something on your bucket list? [00:27:40] Speaker B: Skydiving. [00:27:42] Speaker A: Really? [00:27:43] Speaker B: Yeah. [00:27:44] Speaker A: Yeah. And that means. [00:27:47] Speaker B: There'S. There's. There's still a little bit of a. Would I back out the last moment? I don't think so. It would be pretty cool. [00:27:54] Speaker A: Yeah. I think if you get. If you get all the way up there, you. It is like, there's too much pressure to back out. You can't back out at that point. [00:28:02] Speaker B: I'm such a cheapskate. You're right. If I paid the money to do it, I would not allow myself to back out. You know, it's like, no, no, you've paid your money. You're gonna do it. [00:28:11] Speaker A: You're jumping out of that plane. That's fun. I admire people who have the bravado to be able to just, like, step out into thin air like that. I have never been, nor will I ever be that woman. So show us or tell us about a hidden talent that you have that people in WordPress might not know about. [00:28:34] Speaker B: I like to do woodworking. Oh, cool. I have a. In our garage, have a small wood, you know, small workshop, and I don't do much, but it's a great way to just kind of check out and do something different. And it's almost a form of meditation to relieve the stress. [00:28:54] Speaker A: What kinds of things do you build? [00:28:59] Speaker B: Bowls, cutting boards, small tables. [00:29:04] Speaker A: Oh, very cool. [00:29:04] Speaker B: Some woods, some little wood, some epoxy, some, you know. [00:29:09] Speaker A: Yeah. I am on the creative side of TikTok, so I see those kinds of things. [00:29:14] Speaker B: Oh, yeah. [00:29:15] Speaker A: And it's fascinating. And I just. Yeah, it's beautiful, too. I love it. So you'll have to share some of some photos later of some of the work that you've done. For sure. I'd love to see that. Well, if people are interested in Bluehost cloud and if they're interested in Chris Vanover, how do we get in touch with any of you and the company? [00:29:33] Speaker B: So bluehost.com, we have all of our plans there, including the new Bluehost cloud products. You know, it's targeted towards agencies, but it's really for anybody that's looking for a high performance, highly available website. And you can find me on the system formally known as Twitter. All kids, dad. Kids with a z. [00:29:53] Speaker A: Very good. And we will have all of those links in the show notes. So if you are listening to this episode. Just go to wpcoffeetalk.com, find Chris's episode, and all of those links will be in the show note along with a transcript of today's episode. Chris, thank you so much for spending some time with me today. It was great to get to meet you in Asia, and it's really nice to spend some time getting to know you a little bit better today. [00:30:14] Speaker B: Well, Michelle, thank you very much. It was great. I enjoyed it. [00:30:16] Speaker A: It was my pleasure. Thank you so much. And we'll see everybody else on the next episode of WP Coffee Talk. We hope you enjoyed this episode of WP Coffee Talk. Please share it with others who you know would enjoy hearing from the people who make the WordPress community the wonderful place that it is. If you are interested in joining us as a guest or a sponsor, please visit our [email protected].