[00:00:00] Speaker A: Welcome to WP Coffee Talk with your podcast barista, Michelle Freshette. Special thanks to our sponsors WS form and Beaver Builder. If you're interested in joining WP Coffee Talk as a guest or a sponsor, please visit our [email protected]
. And now, on with the show.
Welcome to the next episode of WP Coffee Talk where I am your podcast barista, Michelle Fresh that's serving up the WordPress stories from around the world. And today my guest is Brian Cords. Brian, hi. Thanks for joining us. How are you?
[00:00:33] Speaker B: Thank you. I'm doing great today. How are you doing?
[00:00:36] Speaker A: I'm doing good, thank you. And I think the first time you and I ever actually met in person, at least where I remember us meeting in person, was Phoenix this year. Where? Camp Phoenix. Are we actually yeah, I think so. And have a chat. Yeah, I'm sure we've been in the same place.
Not I don't doubt that at all because we've go to so many Word camps and things, but I think that's the first time where we know a nice conversation and really got to know each other a little bit. So it's nice to have you back.
[00:00:59] Speaker B: And you are thank you.
[00:01:02] Speaker A: The technology director at HDC, which is Howard Development and Consulting. So I always like to tell people where you're from and what you do. So pretty cool stuff. So I am going to ask you, tell us a little bit about yourself and what you do. Give us the nutshell version of who Brian Cords is.
[00:01:18] Speaker B: Yeah. So like you said, my role is technology director. So really it's kind of like we're a small WordPress agency. We do standard WordPress site builds, we do some WordPress VIP stuff. And my job is very different day to day. Sometimes it's like working on a project and coding and developing and then sometimes it's dealing with clients and that sort of stuff. And sometimes it's trying to help and train the other developers and get them set up really well. So it's a little bit of kind of everything coding, teaching, talking. And then like you said, I love going to WordCamps and I love all the community and the core contributing and all that stuff when I can, for sure.
[00:01:57] Speaker A: That's awesome. And it's nice to see you doing those things and to run into you in those places, too, for sure. And you said you're in Southern California, so it's probably a little warmer for you than it is in western New York right now.
[00:02:11] Speaker B: We always get this sort of like fall heat wave and you're going to the pumpkin patch and you're dripping sweat and we're in that right now.
It is very warm and I have.
[00:02:21] Speaker A: My furnace set to 70 already for the rest of the year. Oh my gosh.
[00:02:25] Speaker B: Are you like upstate?
[00:02:27] Speaker A: Yeah, I'm in Rochester, just I'm about a mile south of Lake Ontario.
Yeah, we get our winters here and they start early, but that's okay. Nobody's forcing me to live here, so it's all good.
So you have a mug and something in it. Tell us about your mug. You could even show it to us. Yeah, let's see.
[00:02:47] Speaker B: I do I have the ultimate developer hipster mug, which is the see if I can make it glow. The ember bluetooth glowing mug. I'm sure I can't be the first person somebody's been on here with one yet.
[00:03:01] Speaker A: I don't remember for sure. If so, maybe only one other person.
I'm jealous, though. That is like, on my list of things someday to have. I have little mug warmers on all my desks. They don't quite do the same. They just hit the very bottom like that.
[00:03:17] Speaker B: Yeah, it does just kind of hit the bottom. But honestly, anytime my wife or our mug is we forget to leave it on the charger and you wake up and it's not charged, we're like, visibly sad. Just I have to drink coffee out.
[00:03:31] Speaker A: Of a regular mug today.
[00:03:34] Speaker B: Used to it being hot.
[00:03:36] Speaker A: Yeah.
The first time I saw those, I was like, that is brilliant, because you also don't have to be tethered to where your mug warmer is. You could take that in the other room and it's still staying warm, which is super nice.
[00:03:48] Speaker B: Yeah.
[00:03:49] Speaker A: And what are you drinking?
[00:03:50] Speaker B: It lasts like a good hour.
You can walk around, come back to your desk. I have just coffee. Always just black coffee. I think I could live off black coffee.
I could give up food and stick with black coffee.
[00:04:04] Speaker A: Well, I have a new mug today that nobody's seen on the show before because it arrived in the mail yesterday. I recently had a birthday, and so if you have a show called Coffee Talk, people will send you coffee mugs. And this one was from my sister in law. It says, not a day over fabulous, which is good because I hit 55 this weekend. So you know what, it's nice to know that somebody still thinks of me that way. Thank you. And even though it's after five, I actually have coffee with cream and sugar today, actually, the caramel macchiato creamer, which I absolutely adore.
That's what I'm drinking, which so, like, if you get bored in the middle of the night, anybody wants to text me, I will still be up because I'm drinking coffee at 507.
[00:04:46] Speaker B: Anyway, I would say my trick is I just make half caffeinated coffee and then I can drink twice as much and then I can not feel guilty drinking coffee in the afternoon.
[00:04:56] Speaker A: I might have to deploy that. I have to figure out how to do that with my K cups, though, for what I have in the office. It's just right here. It's so convenient. We do good coffee other places in the office, the other office, things like that. But this was super convenient today, so I promise not to drink all of it. That's my way around that. If they only drink half, then it is half calf.
[00:05:14] Speaker B: Yeah, there you go.
[00:05:16] Speaker A: Right, well, tell us, how did you get started in.
[00:05:21] Speaker B: I I kind of remember, and I kind of don't. Before I was a developer, I was a teacher. I was an English teacher and taught like, high school English, and I was just doing stuff on the side. And I don't remember when I started with WordPress. I do remember one client, I was building their site, and they were like, oh, how do I edit this? And I was like, I don't know. What do you mean, how do you edit it? I coded it. I didn't realize, oh, you're supposed to let your clients like because I was so new and just freelancing. And then I was like, oh. And that's when I led down this rabbit hole of like there's this thing called WordPress, pretty much everyone uses it. That's how you build websites where your clients can edit it and never looked back. That was probably ten years ago. Maybe, but I think that's how it started.
[00:06:08] Speaker A: What a difference it makes when other people can interact with their own website without breaking things, if they're not admins and things like that. So I do like that part of WordPress too. There's levels of involvement.
[00:06:22] Speaker B: Yeah, because I don't think I discovered the community until probably three or four years after that. I don't know why, but I just didn't realize. I feel like a lot of people have that moment where they realize, oh, wait, there's like a whole community of people who want to talk to you about this, and it's great.
[00:06:39] Speaker A: Back then, there wasn't that box on the dashboard that told you about things that were happening, events that were coming up. So I think it's a little bit easier for people to find the community now, but back when we started, I've been in the community for twelve years now. I've been using WordPress for twelve years. It was several years before I started, joined a meet up or anything, or knew anything about that as well. So definitely takes a little while when you think about websites, that whether you've built them or other people have built them in general as web builders, designers, developers, et cetera, what do you think is something that we don't focus enough attention on as a community that would make the end user have a much better experience on our sites?
I said that very poorly.
[00:07:23] Speaker B: I got the gist.
[00:07:24] Speaker A: Okay, good.
[00:07:29] Speaker B: Maybe you get this answer a lot more frequently, but I've been really focusing on accessibility as something where even I, as like a developer, if I look at my code from a few years ago or something, it's not great in that area. And I think as a community, we're all learning like, oh, there's some best practices for accessibility that have to happen at the very beginning of the process instead of going in and fixing it later. And so I think that's a place where from when you're talking to your designer and your clients and everything, just having those things really deeply ingrained in you is not a place we're at yet, but I think maybe we're getting closer to it's moving.
[00:08:10] Speaker A: Yeah, especially those alt tags on images. For me, I finally ingrained myself to even when I'm tweeting and things like don't forget the alt tag, Michelle. Don't forget the alt tag. So it's a slow process for sure, for it to become automatic like that, but I think it's happening. I agree with you, and I also agree that it makes it a much better thing. And my eyes are very different today than they were twelve years ago when I started working in web. I appreciate a much bolder, bigger font now than I did back then. So just things that make accessibility for people with low vision, blind, et cetera, make it better for the rest of us, too. And all of us are going to get older at some point. So that definitely makes a better web for everybody. I agree.
[00:08:53] Speaker B: Yeah, I agree.
[00:08:54] Speaker A: So what's something that you wish you had known earlier in your WordPress or your design journey that might have made life a little bit easier had you actually known about it sooner?
[00:09:06] Speaker B: Well, I would say that I think the community probably I think I wish I would have known if I if I would have known that you can actually just talk to people and make friends with them and everybody just wants to help each other and give you advice, and then you get to then do that forward to other people. I think if I would have known about that much earlier, I would have felt a lot better because you start realizing people are sometimes people are the only person at their place of work. Like, I was like, that where I was the only WordPress developer and everybody else was some other part of the organization or something and kind of lonely, but it's definitely something where you learn, I wish I would have known earlier to just make friends with people in the community.
[00:09:59] Speaker A: And it's not always easy, right? Because a lot of us, I say us, I am not one of the US, but a lot of people in the community are more on the introverted side. So knowing the community is there already makes it easier to interact as an introverted person, I think, than if you had to try to figure out how to find those people on your own.
Yeah, I agree. It would have been nice if I had known. I made some really big mistakes in the first couple of years with understanding how WordPress worked, and then I'm trashing sites accidentally and not knowing how to get them back. Had I known people, I might have had an easier time of that for sure.
Yeah, as you think back over the different WordPress events like WordCamps and Meetups, what is maybe a moment that was really pivotal for you? Maybe you talked to somebody, you met somebody, you learned something.
I always say like the angels, the sky opened up, the angels saying it doesn't have to be that dramatic, but something where it really was a pivotal moment for you. Can you tell us about that?
[00:10:58] Speaker B: So my first Word spoke, I actually spoke at my first Word Camp ever because I didn't even know about Word camps. I didn't even know there was a meetup in Orange County at the time.
And so I just signed up. I heard of the WordCamp and I signed up to speak. And I think that one was the best because I'm the kind of person where it's hard for me to just attend something.
I much rather be a little more involved or have a job to do. Like if people are coming over to my house, I like to cook because then I just have something to do with my hands and stuff. So it was really nice because I know a lot of people, their first Word camp. Sometimes it's hard to talk to people or make friends or whatever, but because I was a speaker, they kind of force you to socialize a little bit and it helps a lot. And I think because of that first experience, I felt like I then was like, oh well, now I have to go to every Word Camp that's within a certain mile radius after that.
[00:11:55] Speaker A: I agree, and I think that one of the things that I kind of miss I haven't seen at a lot of Word Camps lately is the happiness bar that we used to have at more Word Camps where we just kind of sit down and help each other out a little bit. I'm hoping that comes back a little bit more too, and maybe it's there and I just was too busy to see it. But I loved those kinds of experiences. I'm not a developer, but being able to help somebody even if you don't have developer skills, was really kind of exciting. And also knowing that there's people there that are like, hey, can you help me with this? And that's why they're sitting at that very table.
[00:12:28] Speaker B: Definitely it's nice to when you're there at a Word Camp, I'm a developer, so of course to me, everyone's a developer. Everything's a developer. That's just how I see it. And then you go to WordCamp and you're talking to people and somebody's just a blogger who's working on their photography website and they decided to show up and you get to give them advice or help them or something like uh, it's a completely different side. Know the developers on Twitter arguing about whatever feature coming out or whatever. It's just this whole other world of people who are just actually using it to improve their own life or something like that.
It's a little eye opening when you experience that in person.
[00:13:10] Speaker A: Absolutely. When you get to help them and it makes a big difference to them. What an exciting moment that is. I remember helping somebody, I want to say it was Word Camp, Montreal gosh, I don't remember what year it was, 17 maybe. And there was a woman who was a blogger and she wanted the header on her site to be a light purple instead of the color it was. And there was no settings in that theme to do that. So I showed her how to do that in the customizer with CSS. And I felt like a developer in that moment because I knew how to do something she didn't know how to do.
What an exciting day that was for her, because she was elated, but also for me, that I was able to show her something that I had learned and was able to pass that on. Super cool.
[00:13:55] Speaker B: That feeling kind of never goes away too, from both sides work. Sometimes I'll be wanting to do something in the block editor and then some other developer that I know will be like, oh, you just do this. And it's just like you just took that information that you earned one and handed it right to me and I get to have it. It's great.
[00:14:16] Speaker A: I love that, for sure. Well, tell us a little bit more what you do at HDC. So I know you're a little bit of everything, but what kinds of clientele are you working with? What would you like to talk about? About what you're doing over there?
[00:14:29] Speaker B: Yeah, so day to day, like I said, it's kind of all over the place. So like, for example, this past week, one of the things we have is we have an open source theme that's called UnderStrap that we acquired, and a lot of people use it. It's very popular kind of WordPress theme. And so it needs to be updated because WooCommerce, updated. So the theme needs to be updated. So right now, the last week, I've been trying to triage with community members who submitted pull requests and get everything bundled up and tested and all this stuff and just get that framework, open source framework, just kind of updated and pushed out. And that's not really anything that'll say help our agency other than we have sites that use it, but that's just one side where it's like getting to spend a little time in open source and help out with a project.
It's like that. Or then I turn around and it's the client who wants the site that does this and looks like this, and their budget was this, and you're trying to put all those pieces together and man, it can go kind of back and forth between two ultimately different worlds, I think.
[00:15:39] Speaker A: Absolutely. Sounds like you've got your fingers in a lot of the different directions that are going on there for sure. Now, you also have a podcast, do you not? Can you talk a little bit about that? I'd love to hear about more about.
[00:15:48] Speaker B: What you do there. So I have a podcast with a co host. Her name is Aruba Ahmed. She's sort of like the person I look up to in WordPress development. And so we had started working on some projects together. And then we love just talking through the code of a project, like why you would do something a certain way. And we were both also working really hard to understand the block editor in this new way of building WordPress websites. And so we just decided to start recording it and putting together it's a podcast, but it's also on YouTube. So it's very screen share heavy sometimes. And we go through we pick a topic or a feature and we try to build it and we talk it out and then we edit that down into a more of a produced version. But yeah, it's very much for the WordPress developer who wants to dig into kind of specific topics and how it works. And sometimes she's teaching me how to do something. Sometimes I'm teaching her how to do something, which not as often, but sometimes. And it's been super fun. So, yeah, we're just starting our second season right now.
[00:16:58] Speaker A: Oh, nice. And what's it called and where can.
[00:17:01] Speaker B: We find yeah, VIEWSource is the name, which is kind of a developer joke. And you can find it at VIEWSource FM.
[00:17:09] Speaker A: Oh, very good.
[00:17:10] Speaker B: And we're on YouTube. It's VIEWSource, Twitter, other places.
[00:17:13] Speaker A: Awesome. So people want to learn more from the two of you. They certainly can do that all over the place, which is so let's get into our rapid fire questions. They're not really rapid fire, I always say I'm going to ask them quickly, take the time that you need to answer them. It kind of came a little bit from the inside the Actor Studio with James Lipton, where he has these questions at the that's I'm just kind of like the WP James Lipton here. So let me ask you the questions, you answer them. Take your time, whatever you need. So what are two or three must have plugins that you would recommend?
[00:17:47] Speaker B: Somebody building their own OOH, it's a good one. So building your own website.
I would say that number one is SEO. So I'll typically go for yoast. But really, I think there's a couple of great SEO options. You definitely got to have the SEO option.
That's funny because I started a site today, or I took over a site from another developer today, and none of the plugins transferred over for whatever reason, and there was no plugins on it. And it almost felt like you were in this quiet, relaxing room and I was like, oh, what if I just didn't put any plugins on this site? What would happen? But no, I needed SEO and I needed maybe a redirect plugin for some simple redirects.
I would say those are the two that I almost always put on.
[00:18:42] Speaker A: Yeah, I think those make sense, for sure. At any time in your WordPress journey or even your development journey, have you had a mentor, whether it was an official mentor, somebody who took you under their wings, or somebody that you looked up to and emulated and tried to learn from? Who was it?
[00:19:01] Speaker B: Yeah, I would say that, and she'll kill me for saying this, but once I started that podcast with Aruba, it was really a secret plan for me to get her to teach me all of her ways because we both had very different levels of experience. Not levels, but different paths of experience. And so we both had very different just things we knew about. And so now I would message her with everything, all right, what would you do in this situation? What would you do in this situation? And I don't sound like I always take the advice, but it's that person where you go whether I agree with you or not, I know I'll get something out of talking to you about this topic or about this code problem or about this client problem or something like that. So she's been my recent mentor, I would say over the last two years. But she will be mad when she hears that.
[00:19:56] Speaker A: Well, that's assuming she's going to listen to the episode, but I'll make sure to tag her so she knows.
[00:20:01] Speaker B: Yeah.
[00:20:02] Speaker A: Who is somebody that there you go. Who's somebody in the WordPress community that you look up to and why or that you admire and why?
[00:20:12] Speaker B: Yeah, so I'll cheat and it'll be a group of people. But as a developer, I feel like my struggle in WordPress recently has been finding right information because everything feels like it's changing and it's hard and it's just been a rough time, but change is good, but it's just also hard. And I've been really happy with everybody on the WordPress developer blog that comes out of a I think it's developer wordpress.org slash news that team has been and I think on there, there's like BPH and Nick and Ryan and there's a few others, but they've been like Justin Tadlock. They've been writing these articles, these blog posts that are just, I think, like raising the bar for the kind of content that comes out of WordPress core for developer, specifically for developers. And every time something gets posted on the developer blog, I feel like I see people sharing it. This is a must read, that sort of thing. So I've been really admiring the work they've been doing because I feel like that was a big gap and they're always exceeding everyone's expectations.
[00:21:27] Speaker A: I'll allow it. I think that's a good answer.
[00:21:30] Speaker B: Okay, good.
[00:21:32] Speaker A: What's something that you still want to learn in WordPress but that you haven't tackled yet.
[00:21:39] Speaker B: For me, the one big area I haven't looked at is what they call Headless WordPress. So that's more of like the advanced. I mean, I have played with that, but I don't know enough about it. And it's one of those things where it sounds fancy and cool.
That's one area where I do think a lot of people are moving and there's a lot of interest over there and a lot of cool development stuff. And I think the new like the NASA website that came out, I think that's on a headless type of architecture. So a lot of these big enterprise and publications are using it. So I'm curious. I'm curious what it's like to work on it.
[00:22:23] Speaker A: I want to see the WAPU for Headless WordPress because like nearly Headless know from Harry Potter. It doesn't have to be Gross know Macabre or anything, but he could just be holding his own head under his arm. Like, yeah, this is headless WordPress.
[00:22:39] Speaker B: Yeah, like a Sleepy Hollow.
[00:22:42] Speaker A: Yeah, exactly.
[00:22:43] Speaker B: Where he's holding the pumpkin or whatever. Holding his head.
[00:22:47] Speaker A: We got to get James tryon to design Headless WordPress WAPU. I think that could be fun.
What is one of the biggest mistakes that you've ever made in WordPress and what did you learn from.
[00:23:00] Speaker B: Mean as a developer? I mean, the amount of sites I've broken, live sites, it's countless.
Anytime somebody I work with makes a mistake, I'm always like they're like, how do you know how to fix that? I'm like, yeah, because I did it.
I know, because I've done it. All I'll say one big mistake though, that comes fine, is one time I had trouble getting a client to pay and I took their website down and then I felt bad about it ever since. I felt like, oh, that was not the best way to do it.
I was young and I was mad.
It was a very small amount of money and in the future I'm like, no, that was my mistake for not having good systems in the contract and all this stuff.
I owned that one. I felt bad about that ever since. That was my biggest mistake.
[00:23:52] Speaker A: I'm sure you're not the only one who's ever done that, but yeah, it's a question. It's how do you get people to pay is a good question. But yeah, it's good that you have new systems in place for that. For sure.
[00:24:01] Speaker B: Yeah.
[00:24:02] Speaker A: Well, the flip side of that is what's your proudest WordPress moment?
[00:24:08] Speaker B: I would have to say this 6.3 release was the first time I was actually a core contributor. So I get my name in the little credits page in the back end of WordPress and honestly, I think I just documented a function.
It was not anything I don't even think it was code. I think it was just pure for documentation. But it was super cool to get to see your name in the back end of WordPress your name's on everybody's WordPress installation if they go to that page deep in the update screen. So I was probably way more proud of that than maybe I should have been. But it was exciting.
[00:24:48] Speaker A: That is exciting. I had that experience with 5.6, so I do remember how exciting that felt when you could see your name on there. Yeah, it is a cool thing. And to be part of something big like that, I think you should be proud of that for sure.
[00:25:05] Speaker B: Yeah.
[00:25:06] Speaker A: If you weren't working in web or web tech at all, what's another career that you might like to attempt?
[00:25:15] Speaker B: Well, I shouldn't say a teacher because I did do that. I was in the classroom. So I will say I think the most happy I've been recently is cooking dinner. And I cook dinner a lot. And I've been thinking, like, I wish you could get paid to cook dinner. And then I remembered that is a job. It's called a chef. You can get paid to cook people's dinner.
[00:25:38] Speaker A: This is not for your own family. They don't pay anything.
[00:25:40] Speaker B: Yeah, exactly. Not my kids. They don't pay anything.
I think I would want to do that. I think there's something that sounds really nice about preparing a meal and giving it to somebody.
[00:25:53] Speaker A: Maybe we'll see you on Gordon Ramsay's Health kitchen someday, then.
[00:25:57] Speaker B: Oh, I hope not.
[00:25:59] Speaker A: It could happen. You could compete on that.
[00:26:02] Speaker B: Oh, okay. I was thinking the one where people's restaurants are really bad and he shows up.
[00:26:07] Speaker A: I can't remember what that one was called. The Hell's Kitchen is where they have two kitchens that compete against each other and everybody gets voted off out of the kitchen every week. Kind of.
Oh, yeah, that one's fun. I might DVR that one every week, but we'll talk about that another time.
[00:26:24] Speaker B: I will talk about Gordon Ramsay as much as you need.
[00:26:27] Speaker A: I love his TikTok. Let's just say his TikTok account is.
[00:26:31] Speaker B: Oh, I have to check that out.
[00:26:33] Speaker A: Definitely check it out. He's good.
What's something on your bucket list? Something you'd like to do?
[00:26:43] Speaker B: I think it would be really fun to go to the other two flagship Word camps, the Asia and Europe. I don't know that it would ever be the opportunity. I don't know that it'd ever be worth anybody paying for me to go to one of those, but I sure would love to because I always hear great things about those and I had a great time at WordCamp US. And it just seems like super fun to get to see those know, I'm very US centric in everything and I would love to see in person those other sides of WordPress that make know so much of the community.
[00:27:20] Speaker A: Absolutely. I can say that I did that this year. I was on all three of them and it was amazing. Incredible experience. And everyone was different and yet somehow the same because people are amazing. So I hope you are able to do that because I think you would enjoy it immensely. Absolutely.
[00:27:38] Speaker B: Awesome.
[00:27:39] Speaker A: So the next question is the one where I never know what's going to come out of somebody's mouth, but show us or tell us about a hidden talent you have that the WordPress community might not be aware of.
[00:27:53] Speaker B: Well, I guess it's not that hidden because I will pick music because I do have instruments all around me in the background and I feel like everybody who is in WordPress and especially does podcasting, we all have our guitars and everything behind us. So it's probably not that hidden. But yeah, that's know, being a musician is a big part of it and I love that WordPress. Something about WordPress attracts, I think just creatives and musicians and stuff.
[00:28:23] Speaker A: I think you're right.
The guitars you see behind me here, those were my father's, he passed last year and so I inherited his guitars which I did learn to play when I was a teenager but when I hung them on the wall I said, does this make me a developer now? Because I have guitars in the background.
That's good though. I see what a ukulele? I see what is the one that's high up on the shelf over there?
[00:28:48] Speaker B: Yeah, that one's a mandolin up there. Yeah. And the Euclides in there's, something that you can't see. And then this old piano that's not even mine but just is now. It's like my burden to move this piano into every house.
[00:29:02] Speaker A: Upright, grand. I recognize that I have one as well. Yeah. Beautiful sound. I bet.
[00:29:08] Speaker B: No, I mean, I wish it did.
It needs to be tuned. It's been neglected and abused and I just need to tune it.
[00:29:18] Speaker A: Yeah, me too. But it does have a nice sound when it is tuned, I bet.
[00:29:22] Speaker B: Yeah. I do love the sound of a piano.
[00:29:25] Speaker A: Yeah, me too. So how can we find you online on social? Tell us where if people have questions, how do they get to find you?
[00:29:34] Speaker B: Yeah, so I would say if you want to check out the podcast that's VIEWSource FM, which is definitely the most, a lot of the best content is there for learning stuff and learning about things and then I've been trying everything on the social medias. I don't know with any of it, it's hard, right? None of it's very good.
I'm on Twitter and that's just Brian Cords my name and you can find me on there. That's probably the most active. I tried to go on Reddit for five minutes and that kind of scared me. And all the other ones I keep forgetting to check and I really like mastodon but it's not very WordPress centric so far.
But yeah, you can find me on all of those. Just my name Brian gords.
[00:30:27] Speaker A: Awesome. Is there anything else you want to talk about today that I haven't asked you about?
[00:30:36] Speaker B: I don't think so okay. Now I feel like I should have had a question for you.
[00:30:42] Speaker A: No, that's all good. Sometimes people are like, jonesing, and afterwards they're like, oh, you didn't ask me about such and such, so I just want to make sure I put it out there. But it's perfectly fine not to have one. It just means I did a really good job as an interviewer. That's all it means. So I'll take it as a compliment.
[00:30:57] Speaker B: Yeah, I mean, I think you definitely got me fully talking about myself the whole time, so.
[00:31:06] Speaker A: I pride myself on that. Absolutely. Well, Brian, thank you so much for joining us today. If you've been listening to this episode and you want to find those links and you don't want to have to memorize them, just go to WP coffeetalk.com, look at Brian's episode, and we will have all that information in the show notes along with the transcript of today's conversation. Brian, thank you for joining me. I hope you enjoy the rest of your day. I look forward to seeing you at a Future WordPress event.
[00:31:29] Speaker B: All right, thank you. You too.